Missing the point?

October 16, 2008

A Christian Spirituality level Poll

 

 
 

  

In regard to the US political Canadidates  

 

(1 Cor 6:9 KJV)  Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10  Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

 

Now about the Church History
 
Who founded the catholic church? Boniface (606)
The orthodox church split from the Catholic church in 1054.
Who founded the Lutheran  Church?  Martin Luther  (1512)
Who founded the Anglican Church of England ? King Henry VIII   in 1534
John Knox of Scotland founded the Presbyterian Church, in 1580.
The Congregational Church was founded by Robert Brown in Holland, in 1582.
John Smith in Amsterdam founded the Baptist Church, in 1606.
Michelis Jones in New York founded the Dutch Reformed Church, in 1628.
The Methodist Church, was founded by John & Charles Wesley in England in 1774.
The Unitarian Church was founded by Theophilus Lindley in London in 1774.
Who founded the Plymouth Brethren Church?  John Darby 1847,
Who founded the church of god denomination? D.S. Warner (1880)
Who found the Mennonite Church?
Who founded the Methodist church? John Wesley (1729)
Holdeman Mennonites were founded from a schism in 1859,
Who founded the Jehovah witness church? Charles T. Russell (1874)
Who founded the mormon church? Joseph smith (1830)
The Protestant Episcopal Church is an offshoot of the Church of England,
and was founded by Samuel Seabury in the American Colonies in the 18th Century.
The Salvation Army was founded by William Booth in London in 1888.
Church of the Nazarene was founded in 1895 in Los Angeles, California, by Phineas F. Bresee, a Methodist Episcopal Church minister, and Dr. Joseph Pomeroy Widney, a Methodist layman
New Covenant Holiness Church was founded between the years of 1886 – 1901.
The Christian & Missionary Alliance Church was founded by  A B Simpson 1887
The Assemblies of God is an evangelical, Pentecostal organization that was founded in Arkansas in 1914. It has grown to be the largest Pentecostal denominatiom. the Assemblies of God emerged from the mass of Pentecostal sects that formed during the nineteenth century and trace their formation to the Azusa Street revival of 1906.
Fire Baptized Holiness Church of God of the Americas is a predominantly African-American Pentecostal holiness denomination of Christians. was founded by Benjamin Hardin Irwin and William Edward Fuller, Sr. (1875-1958).

Hey if you have a pet doctrine, or want to preach your own Gospel, merely you start your own church? Seems many others do that too..

Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

http://postedat.wordpress.com/2008/09/19/dispensationalists-it-seems-to-compensate-for-their-often-rejections/

Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

1Jo 4:1 ¶ Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Mt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:’

I do not consider any of these above Churches or rather Crutches  as “correct”   The true Church of Christ of which I am originated about 33 A.D. or actually it was always in the mind of God from the beginning.           

(1 Cor 6:9 KJV)  Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10  Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
 
(2 Cor 6:17 KJV)  Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
 
http://pbulow.tripod.com/ 
 
PS Do also note that while most news media, liberals, democrats had wrongfully belittled Sarah Palin’s association with Pentecostal Christianity, this actually next gave her more publicity, exposure and better still even next more support from many Christians. Not what the demons had expected or hope for for sure. The bashing of her religion was clearly a great mistake on their parts. Obama wishes he got so much free media coverage now as well..
  
In reality Genuine Born Again, Evangelical, Christians are total abstainers from smoking, drugs, alcohol, cheating, lying, stealing, tax evasions, pornography, or rather all personal vices, Impairments, gay sex now too.  
 
 Clearly ** The Bible teaches against drinking alcoholic beverages.
 
The liars and the demons  of course will say other wise.
 I have said it before the devil will immediately challenge all truths, and next use his followers to do the same.. and you can always find a sufficiently distorted translation, or re-translation of the Bible now as well to support any point of view that you want, but that does so not still make it right or the truth.
 
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13 Comments »

  1. […] them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, https://anyonecare.wordpress.com/2008/10/16/a-spirituality-level-poll/ http://pbulow.tripod.com/ […]

    Pingback by Who founded the Church? « Posted at wordpress.com — October 16, 2008 @ 10:24 pm

  2. In Reference to the Poll results it is surprising that while most people claimed they were Christians, clearly half of them did not read their Bibles enough, nor even know them.. which is not surprising these days too.

    So of course it is now next not surprising that half of the people do not agree on divorce, alcohol if they are Biblically acceptable but almost all posters believed that Gay marriage was wrong.. but in reality Divorce, abortion, gay marriage, alcohol consumption are all equally unacceptable still now today, in the Bible and in God’s eyes still as well. They are all equally unacceptable sinful acts.
    Do see Abstainers, divorce, at http://thefocusonthefamily.wordpress.com/

    Comment by thenonconformer — October 18, 2008 @ 9:14 pm

  3. Unless the LORD Himself comes and makes His home with us — it is all sounding gongs. “Persevere, and ye and your house shall be saved.”

    Comment by shevaberakhot — October 19, 2008 @ 3:57 am

  4. >>Unless the LORD Himself comes and makes His home with us

    Many people have allowed Jesus personaly into their home, but not into every room.. what about you?

    Comment by thenonconformer — October 19, 2008 @ 5:22 am

  5. If alcohol consumption is so wrong, why is wine mandatory for all Christians? I am not talking about alcohol abuse here or drunkenness but merely alcohol consumption as stated in the questions above. And please spare me from the non-alcoholic wine rhetoric.

    I think that above all else the propensity towards this kind of legalism and the pride that it produces should be avoided. After all, everything is “legal” but not everything is expedient. Only judge from a right standard and then only in love being your only motivation. If you think you are any better than anyone else, then you are a hypocrite as everything you have was given to you anyway.

    Comment by timspong — October 20, 2008 @ 11:58 pm

  6. Why are alcoholics always in denial? and why do they often lie, cheat, steal also now? Because if they do admit the truth they are alcoholics, sinners too they do have now to repent of the sin of disobeying God’s word about being drunk too.. so they take the ostrich denial approach instead too often. Alcoholism still is a sin of a deliberate, personal choice, and to be set free you have to admit your sin, confess it, renounce it, ask God for forgiveness through Jesus Christ as well.. It is not only wrong for the average person it is also especially wrong for leaders in the government, politicians.

    https://anyonecare.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/alcoholism-the-unacceptable-sin/ http://witnessed.wordpress.com/2008/10/10/wells-still-without-water/

    The police commissioners said alcohol-related crime cost an estimated $1.7 billion a year. They said 40 per cent of people detained attributed their offence to alcohol. Police chiefs unite in push for alcohol reforms http://lastthing.wordpress.com/tag/alcohol/

    “The minority Conservative government’s approach to multiculturalism will get an airing in a speech by Secretary of State Jason Kenney at the Brant riding association’s annual general meeting on Thursday. Kenney, MP for Calgary Southeast, has served in Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s government as Secretary of State for Multiculturalism and Canadian Identity since 2006. He has been active in promoting human rights – particularly freedom of religion – in autocratic countries. He is a member of Parliament’s Canada-Tibet Committee and was instrumental in the country granting honorary citizenship to the Dalai Lama in June 2006. The event will take place at the Sherwood Restaurant on Colborne Street East. Cocktails will be served at 6:30 p.m., with the meeting scheduled to start at 7 p.m. Kenney is expected to speak starting at 8 p.m.” http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1016750

    The Evangelical Christian PM Stephen Harper should also note that the New Conservatives themselves now tend to be just as much alcoholics as the Liberals. Any false preconceived notions that they generally are not is clearly a myth.

    Look I am not alone in this view.. too many Canadian persons have noticed that we have much too many alcoholics in the governments, even as elected ones, even as leaders, Ralph Klein, Brian Mulroney was known for his boozing now too.. Regretfully still there much too many alcoholics even in the Conservative party now for my liking, , in this area too they are just as bad as the Liberal too it seems.. and who can forget Ralph Klein’s alcoholic outburts too, A man is certainly known what he is like by the friends he keep and having an brain damaged alcoholic as a friend, as a drinking buddy is really no virtue, it is a sad recommendation, a poor reference that you cannot even be now proud off.. The Prime Minister Stephen Harper a professing Christian Missinary Alliance Evangelical too had said that the ex PM Brian Mulroney was a close friends.. he Harper now really better start to get better friends and appointees than his alcoholic drinking buddies.. and still not one cent of taxpayers’ money should ever be even used to buy any alcoholic, alcohol at any governmental function, expense account.. for we all know how bad alcoholism is and how much evil , suffering it brings, all alcoholics should be fired, especially all of the alcoholic the public and civil servants, all alcoholic elected officials too and not rather falsely rewarded with more alcohol for almost all of them are already known to be liars, cheat’s thieves, abusers, etc..

    Even our professing Canadian Christian Evangelical prime Minister Stephen Harper, and others, still should note that these are basic, ground rules in proper Bible interpretation that must be followed before anyone even attempts to fully study, apply the Holy Scripture even related to consuming much too many Alcoholic beverages now too? He personally and falsely, undeniably loves his alcoholic wine, beer much too much still too?

    WE ALL DO NEED to have a right attitudes EVEN to all of leaders, pastors, elders too, and they have to lead by a good personal example too.

    Living high on the hog… All likely the tip of an iceberg too… so continue to make sure that any expenditure of taxpayers’ dollars is done responsibly

    I am still trying to understand also why some of the persons, MPs too had felt thy had a need to be there? Were they alcoholics? or what?

    “The head of Ontario’s embattled workplace insurance agency should not have held a lobbying session at one of Ottawa’s most expensive downtown steakhouses, “Progressive Conservative MPP Tim Hudak asked why the head of the agency that helps injured workers was lobbying MPs. “It was an inappropriate use of funds – that were supposed to be used for injured workers – to have this high-end soirée at the swankiest bar in Ottawa,” “You’ve got to wonder what this guy has to do before he’s shown the door.” Labour Minister Brad Duguid is hauling the head of Ontario’s worker safety board onto the carpet for hosting a reception for MPs at an Ottawa restaurant. “I will be speaking to (the WSIB chair) to ensure that, indeed, the message is sent that we want to make sure that any expenditure of taxpayers’ dollars is done responsibly,” he said. Steve Mahoney chairman of Workplace Safety and Insurance Board, was “wining and dining” federal acquaintances last week at Hy’s Steakhouse. While the former Liberal MPP, MP, and federal cabinet minister insisted the May 5 event was “fully justified,” provincial officials were less certain. There was wine and beer consumed during the reception, attended by Liberal and Conservative politicians Mahoney said, adding the reception cost less than $1,000 and he paid for all the alcohol and for a subsequent steak dinner with six to eight MPs out of his own pocket” attended by Conservative MPs, Justice Minister Rob Nicholson, whip Jay Hill and David Tilson, NDP MP Peter Stoffer , members of the finance minister’s office. Speaker of the House Peter Milliken was there, as were fellow Liberal MPs John McKay, Karen Redman and Wayne Easter. If he can pick up the booze, he should pick up the steak,” said New Democratic MPP Peter Kormos, who, along with leader Howard Hampton, is calling for Mr. Mahoney to resign from his post. “Why does he feel guilty about paying the liquor portion to the WSIB premium payers, but he doesn’t feel guilty about charging 50 steaks?” While “ NDP Leader Howard Hampton called for Mahoney’s resignation last month after a Star probe found the WSIB gave millions in rebates to firms prosecuted by the province and found guilty of safety violations leading to deaths and injuries.” he needs to adress his own party members to make sure that any expenditure of taxpayers’ dollars is done responsibly Ironically I had even written recently that the Conservatives clearly are basically no different than the Liberals, and both have much too many alcoholics now as well.. and what about the NDP, BQ too? Does the RCMP and other government departments, also entertain MPs and others like this, with alcohol now as well?”

    And how many of these persons. MPs now are Alcoholics still too? Not one cent of taxpayer’s money should even be used to buy bad drugs or any Alcohol now as well.

    I am not only transparently honest, straight forward, and rightfully too, but I rightfully do still judge any of our leaders not only per their past words, promises, acts, but also by a higher exemplary standard now as well especially when they profess to be Christians, or rather as often in reality so called “Christian alcoholics”.. which is rather an oxymoron.

    “The only other gift he paid for and kept from the APEC jamboree was a set of eight crystal wine glasses from Stephen Harper, Canada’s Conservative Party Prime Minister. Mr Harper also gave him two bottles of dessert wine. Mr Howard donated these for “use during an official function at the Lodge”.

    If you took 2 martinis or 2 beers a day you are an alcoholic. Alcoholism is a crime and not a disease, it is a crime, it is just as lethal, bad, and it is really unacceptable as selling or taking bad drugs too. Canada’s bad drug problem, drunk driving, alcoholism is increasing not just amongst the teens, but also in the work place, in the government now as well even amongst the civil and public servants. Most major home violence, car or truck accidents are still associated with alcohol now too and not speeding. It’s a fact that drinking alcohol can seriously damage one’s health and cause permanent brain damage as well .Alcohol may lead to liver problems, a variety of cancers as well as forms of osteoporosis and depression, and studies are showing, too, that women are more susceptible to the ill effects of alcohol than are men.

    “ Results from a national survey of more than 1,000 human resource professionals nationwide found that 67% consider addiction and substance abuse to be among the most serious problems in the workplace. Released by the nonprofit Hazelden Foundation, Interestingly enough, the survey revealed that 56% of the HR professionals say they believe addiction among women has increased over the last 5 years. ” Alcohoism is also a major unresolved problem in the police forces, the RCMP, civil and public servcie too..

    Not one cent of tax payers money should be used by anyone for any alcoholic entertainment in any government expense, function now as well. Again Alcohol causes irreversible brain damage, and it next also hurts serverely many others undeniably too..

    Gangs and drugs, alcohol are are still a big problem on Indian reservations and elsewhere. Why? all while zero tolerance for gang affiliations or child pornography, has developed too. We can tackle the supply of drugs by taking on and defeating the criminal gangs who should be treated in the same way as subversive organizations were. “ We all do have to send a message loud and clear to the gangs – you are not tolerated and If you are caught you will be charged. In many cases such gangs are linked to organized crime. You need to fully also go after the gang leaders who are making money using the kids and drugs to do it. The government can now wrest control of violence-plagued reserves by having zero tolerance for gangs and by banning drugs and alcohol from homes, with the help of RCMP and the courts. I can tell you that our government is committed to ensuring that Canada will not be safe haven for those who pose a threat to our national security or the safety of our families and communities. On this, our tolerance level is zero,” Stockwell Day but real actions by the government still do speak louder than words.

    “The most successful policing model in modern terms is the “zero tolerance” model used in New York. The strategy was known there as “one broken window” following the observation that where there were broken windows and rubbish in streets there was crime. During the programme’s operation in New York, the number of murders plummeted from 2,262 to 629.”

    Read the full press release from the Hazelden Foundation: Substance abuse and addiction among most serious workplace issues.

    The welfare system in Canada needs also to provide more understanding towards the persons with substance abuse problems. If you take a look at all of who is in the welfare programs, you will find that at least 10 percent of the persons involved with this program do even have a substance abuse problem. So mandatory attendance at Alcoholic Anonymous for them is a must too. These same persons with substance abuse problems can’t get a job next too otherwise

    “And children of parents with substance abuse problems are more likely to be physically abused. Furthermore, parents with substance abuse problems are less likely to hold a job or be able to care for their kids. “

    ” A study conducted in NYC found that 75 percent of abused children had one parent with a substance abuse problem (GAO)” These abused, neglected children suffer next at school, in life and in their health as well as a result.

    Some people try to sugar coat it all wrongfully but we do need harsher restrictions on the sale and marketing of all alcoholic beverages (restrictions such as advertising bans and higher taxes) for the end effect of Alcohol on many of the individuals ultimately is no different than smoking or using illegal drugs, such as marijuana, crack, cocaine and heroin..

    I had read on many lying Sites that Barrack Obama does not drink alcohol and that is not true.. Is he rather an alcolholic too now?http://www.sofakingdrunk.com/2008/05/09/obama-and-clinton-drinking-alcohol-obama-drunk-clinton-drunk/

    In reality Genuine Born Again, Evangelical, Christians are total abstainers from smoking, drugs, alcohol, cheating, lying, stealing, tax evasions, pornography, or rather all personal vices, Impairments

    Reality! These days it is too hard to tell the difference between secular persons and even evangelical pastors, Christians they seem to do the same things too. Why are alcoholics always in denial? and why do they often lie, cheat, steal also now? Because if they do admit the truth they are alcoholics, sinners too they do have now to repent of the sin of disobeying God’s word about being drunk too.. so they take the ostrich denial approach instead too often. Alcoholism still is a sin of a deliberate, personal choice, and to be set free you have to admit your sin, confess it, renounce it, ask God for forgiveness through Jesus Christ as well.. It is not only wrong for the average person it is also especially wrong for leaders in the government, politicians. It is amazing how one can quickly spot an alcoholic, while they cannot still see their sin, and how quick they are to oppose themselves being exposed now too..

    Genuine Born Again Evangelical Christians are total abstainers

    1 Cor 6:10 Nor cheats (swindlers and thieves), nor greedy graspers, nor drunkards, nor foulmouthed revilers {and} slanderers, nor extortioners {and} robbers will inherit {or} have any share in the kingdom of God.

    We know that alcoholicism is a terrible sin that now damages the person’s brain, affects their ability to work, to drive a car, and negatively affects their own behavior and affects many others too. The same reality is true of one taking now bad drugs as well. So I was also similarly shocked, surprised to discover the the falsely professing evangelical Christian Stephen Harper our Prime Minister likes to consume wine, alcohol, and he buys it for others as well.

    Beyond a Biblical doubt the Genuine Born Again Evangelicals are total abstainers, like me, I never drink or touch wine or alcohol, at any time, nor do I give playboy, pornography, wine or wine glasses to anyone.
    ““Dr. Daniel Akin, President of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary has written an article in favor of the famous Resolution #5 (Resolution calling for total opposition to alcohol). Alcohol is the number one drug problem among teenagers. (1 Cor. 8:13; 9:19-22; 10:32-33). Because I am an example to others, I will make certain no one ever walks the road of sorrow called alcoholism because they saw me take a drink and assumed, “if it is alright for him it is alright for me.” No, I will choose to set an uncompromising example of abstinence because I love them. I will seek my joy and filling in the Spirit not in alcohol. I love the Phillips translation of Ephesians 5:18 which reads, “Don’t get your stimulus from wine (for there is always the danger of excessive drinking), but let the Spirit stimulate your souls.” Psalm 4:7-8 adds, “You [O Lord] have put more joy in my heart than they have when their grain and wine abound. In peace I will both lie down and sleep; for you alone, O Lord, make me dwell in safety.” There is no record that Jesus drank strong drink, As a pastor or church leader, would I demand abstinence for leadership? Absolutely! The principle of Proverbs 31:4-5 is appropriately applied here, “It is not for Kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine, or for rulers to take strong drink, lest they drink and forget what has been decreed and pervert the rights of all the afflicted.” “PM Stephen Harper the pretender evangelical as well.. is not the first time he wrongfully gave alcoholic beverages to others, and what next?

    (1 Cor 11:28 KJV) But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

    (Prov 3:33 KJV) The curse of the LORD is in the house of the wicked: but he blesseth the habitation of the just.

    Clearly do note this also.. 1 Cor 6:10 Nor cheats (swindlers and thieves), nor greedy graspers, nor drunkards, nor foulmouthed revilers {and} slanderers, nor extortioners {and} robbers will inherit {or} have any share in the kingdom of God.

    Jesus himself had said that professing to be a Christian is not enough, and it applies now to a PM as well, one rather can tell what a person is really like by what he does, a True Christian is one who evidently is controlled by the Spirit of God and not by self, sin, a real Christian is one where thus anyone can clearly see by the evidence of the fruit of the Holy Spirit, including even self control.

    Matt 3:8 Bring forth fruit that is consistent with repentance [let your lives prove your change of heart];

    Gal 5:23 Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [that can bring a charge].

    Matt 7:16 You will fully recognize them by their fruits. Do people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?

    Matt 7:17 Even so, every healthy (sound) tree bears good fruit [worthy of admiration], but the sickly (decaying, worthless) tree bears bad (worthless) fruit.

    Matt 7:18 A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear excellent fruit [worthy of admiration].

    Matt 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.

    Matt 7:20 Therefore, you will fully know them by their fruits.

    1 Tim 3:2 Now a bishop (superintendent, overseer) must give no grounds for accusation {but} must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, circumspect {and} temperate {and} self-controlled; [he must be] sensible {and} well behaved {and} dignified and lead an orderly (disciplined) life; [he must be] hospitable [showing love for and being a friend to the believers, especially strangers or foreigners, and be] a capable {and} qualified teacher,

    Alcoholics, wine drinkers tend to have evidentially lost their self control..

    I have often rightfully said to many preachers I would rather see them first by example live the life of Christ instead of merely preaching it others. Preaching the Gospel is not an valid alternative to living it. I even do know People who profess to be Christians and they are Alcoholics too.. but they are not Christians… They fool themselves only as to who they still really are too.

    By their own fruits Jesus said to us all you can tell what they are really like still.

    (Prov 16:25 KJV) There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

    (Mat 7:20 KJV) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

    I admit I had lost all respect for the supposedly great preacher Spurgeon who was so ready to preach to others about their sins, but he himself now could not resist the Temptation of a cigar. Similar we find out that other preachers could not give up smoking too.. Look at this reference in regard to AB Simpson, the past founder of the Christian Missionary Alliance denomination now too. “The Man, the movement, and the mission-A documentary of the C&MA” Cut directly from their national web site. It was the custom for the ministers of the district to meet together to discuss all things common. This little reunion, in its proper sequence, was held one day at the Manse. And unaccountably strange odor of tobacco smoke began to steal upstairs. Suddenly the study door flew open and a towering figure of fury – all of four feet, one inch in its stocking feet – stood at the threshold. “SMOKING! Out of this house!” said Grannie Simpson, and in a body the ministerial association moved. https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=15796002&postID=3424830162204895882 http://reversion-clause.com/

    The CMA is a pretentious and one of the most demonic churches I have been too made up of lying hypocrites where the professing Christians not only abuse people, poor people included, but they indulge in Alcohol too often too.. “I know that as a minister in the C&MA I am called to abstain from drinking alcoholic beverages, here at Safe Harbor there are just a few of people who voluntary give up drinking. The majority of our church drinks: beer, wine, and of course margaritas. I do not have a problem with this. Some pastors would. I can sum up my position by quoting Derek Webb, “While I do not condone drunkenness, I do condone drinking” http://lukecamara.blogspot.com/2007/05/jesus-and-wine.html

    and what other pastoral vices now are now being PERMITTED falsely today, the handing out of beer, wine, alcoholic beverages, playboy, pornography, acts of cheating, lying, stealing, STEALING THE TITHES, adultery, tax evasions still?
    .

    There are several basic, ground rules in proper Bible interpretation that must be followed by all persons now before anyone even attempts to fully study the Holy Scripture. The first rule is pray and ask the Holy spirit to guide you, to teach you.. not rather self, mere men or women.. we should seek first and not last the Holy Spirit for illumination. The Holy Spirit wants to share the treasures of God’s Word with those who rightfully do esteem Him. The most important principle to remember in studying God’s Word is that it can only be understood with the help of the Holy Spirit. Those who approach the Bible without the Holy Spirit to teach them, may gain some insight into truths, their lives, but also will receive no definite, permanent, important life-changing revelation. Bible Commentaries should be used only very sparingly if at all. Even the most anointed man or woman, preacher of God clearly still can be wrong, biased, have a hidden agenda, limited, (or just shallow) in their understanding or interpretation of certain Bible topics, subjects. Do not believe any man or women, rather solely Take God’s word for it.

    “A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth” (Proverbs 14:6)

    We know that alcoholism is a terrible sin that now damages the person’s brain, affects their ability to work, to drive a car, and negatively affects their own behavior and affects many others too. The same reality is true of one taking now bad drugs as well. So I was also similarly shocked, surprised to discover the the falsely professing evangelical Christian Stephen Harper our Prime Minister likes to consume wine, alcohol, and he buys it for others as well.

    PM Stephen Harper also the pretender evangelical as well.. is not the first time he wrongfully gave alcoholic beverages to others, and what next?

    (1 Cor 11:28 KJV) But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. (Prov 3:33 KJV) The curse of the LORD is in the house of the wicked: but he blesseth the habitation of the just.

    I have often rightfully said to many preachers I would rather see them first by example live the life of Christ instead of merely preaching it others. Preaching the Gospel is not an valid alternative to living it. I even do know People who profess to be Christians and they are Alcoholics too.. but they are not Christians… They fool themselves only as to who they still really are too.

    If you took 2 martinis or 2 beers a day you are an alcoholic. Alcoholism is a crime and not a disease, it is a crime, it is just as lethal, bad, and it is really unacceptable as selling or taking bad drugs too. Canada’s bad drug problem, drunk driving, alcoholism is increasing not just amongst the teens, but also in the work place, in the government now as well even amongst the civil and public servants. Most major home violence, car or truck accidents are still associated with alcohol now too and not speeding. It’s a fact that drinking alcohol can seriously damage one’s health and cause permanent brain damage as well .Alcohol may lead to liver problems, a variety of cancers as well as forms of osteoporosis and depression, and studies are showing, too, that women are more susceptible to the ill effects of alcohol than are men.

    Not one cent of taxpayer’s money should be ever used in the governments, civil and public servants, expense accounts to buy alcohol, wine or beer.

    > I did not know that smoking is also a sin?

    Impaired means when Mental awareness, alertness and function do also come under a dulling, slowing effect. This hinders our mental ability in everyday activity and restricts or cuts off our mental fellowship with the Holy Spirit speaking to our mind from our spirit. A person who has the smoking or drinking habit, in honesty, must label themselves an “addict” too. in bondage to Satan and the flesh and the lust thereof. Alcoholism, Smoking, lying, stealing, slander is demonic, which is why it is so hard to stop on your own and they all are not compatible with the Christian experience. These sinful problems are next forcing negative consequences on other “innocent” people Co-workers, family and even children are victims . Christians are definitely thus not to be “stumbling blocks” to others. Matthew 18: 6, 7, “But who so shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offenses! For it must needs be that offenses come; but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh!”

    Also smoking is “burning incense to other (demon) gods”. II Kings 22:17, II Kings 23:5; II Chronicles 28:25, 34:24, 34:25; Jeremiah 1:16, 7:9, 11:12, 19:4; Chapter 44, 48:35.

    To receive complete freedom from these sinful bondages, the Believer must see his “habit” or being “hooked” as a spiritually rooted problem and confess it as a deliberate sin of Disobedience to God too. Acknowledging lust, Alcohol, tobacco, cigarettes, drugs, lying, stealing, marijuana and smoking as sin is prerequisite. Personal Confession of the sin according to (1 John 1:9 KJV) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.and we all must choose to submit to God according to (James 4:7 KJV) Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. 9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

    next , places the Believer on proper ground for the unclean spirits to be cast out of them

    and whether Smoking it is legal or not legal basically is not the issue in the sight of God.. but when you clearly have lost self control, it also alters your judgment and your ability to perceive reality. on top of that you now are a prisoner to a bad habit of smoking , the very clear source of the bad habit is the devil now as well and not God.. and if you cannot see this it is either cause you do not want to or are in false denial… Half of the world knows that smoking cigarettes even is bad for you, it is a vice, and it causes cancer, linked to gum disease, destroys the body and you did not realize it was sinful? either you are lying to me, lying yourself others or you are being deliberate ignorant. Smoking is not without potential real negative consequences and yes anyone would be an absolute fool not to factor that truth now as well . One cannot honestly claim to be using alcohol, smoking or marijuana for any purpose other than to falsely intoxicate oneself. to lose self control. One is not getting you closer to God by being intoxicated , but moving you away from Him. You’re doing the weed for YOURSELF, serving the sinful sinful self, the flesh now in reality. You are to die to self, the flesh and all of it’s lust thereof as a Christian now still too. The ends do not justify now the mans still as well.

    1 Corinthians 10:31 (King James Version) Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

    1 Corinthians 3:16-17 (King James Version) 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    Christians are always to remain SOBER too. 1 Thessalonians 5:8 (King James Version) 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
    Sober, obedient and not given to lusts of the flesh. 1 Peter 1:13-14 (King James Version) 13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

    Ephesians 5:11-21 (King James Version) 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. 13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. 14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. 15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, 16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. 17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. 18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit 19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms

    Even our PM Stephen Harper needs to get better friends, needs to repent himself too.

    Undeniably whether you are also a leader or not getting drunk is still an unacceptable sin as well. And all true Christians consider this still a sinful act

    >>If alcohol consumption is so wrong, why is wine mandatory for all Christians?
    any fool who lies, twists the Biblke, is too quick to speak before he reads the whole Bible now too.. or https://anyonecare.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/alcoholism-the-unacceptable-sin and speaks is still what?

    Wine is not mandatory.. the greek used for wine in the new testament was, is grape juice.. what family are you part of ? an alcoholic one?

    Genuine Born Again Evangelical Christians are total abstainers

    1 Cor 6:10 Nor cheats (swindlers and thieves), nor greedy graspers, nor drunkards, nor foulmouthed revilers {and} slanderers, nor extortioners {and} robbers will inherit {or} have any share in the kingdom of God.

    There are several things not named in the Bible that should definitely be avoided by Christians, and pastors and preachers should be speaking against. For example; there is pornography – the vile and evil use of the bodies of others to make pictures and films of people in the acts of things that should be kept in private. There is also the act of abortion – the murderous act of killing the innocent human baby before they are ever born. There is slavery, are we going to advocate slavery because the Bible tells us how to treat those who are enslaved to us? I would hope not. Someone will probably start crying out, “That is straw men,” so be it, it is based on principles of Scripture. Are you going to burn them, because they wreak havoc on your excuses for alcoholic drink?

    We know that alcoholicism is a terrible sin that now damages the person’s brain, affects their ability to work, to drive a car, and negatively affects their own behavior and affects many others too. The same reality is true of one taking now bad drugs as well. So I was also similarly shocked, surprised to discover the the falsely professing evangelical Christian Stephen Harper our Prime Minister likes to consume wine, alcohol, and he buys it for others as well.

    Beyond a Biblical doubt the Genuine Born Again Evangelicals are total abstainers, like me, I never drink or touch wine or alcohol, at any time, nor do I give playboy, pornography, wine or wine glasses to anyone

    1 Cor 5:11 KJV) But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. (1 Cor 5:12 KJV) For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? (1 Cor 5:13 KJV) But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

    Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Sin is unacceptable for all persons Christians or not, they have to try to deliberately abstain from sins, to have now the maturity, self control and if they let Jesus do that he will help them to do that by the Holy spirit.. otherwise if Jesus now cannot help them, cause they will not let him, they are backslidden sinners going to hell. It is as simple as that. No one made Obama drink Alcohol. I did not as well.

    and what about Christ – he didn’t sin. yet he consumed wine? How little you know about the Bible even.. the Greek words for the wine he consumed was grape juice, no fermented wine, juice.. are you an alcoholic and is this why you want to cling to drinking wine now too? Priest and leaders by the same Bible were not allowed to drink wine, so Christ could not have drunk wine. Study the Bible stop listening to men’s lies.

    Ignorance is still no excuse in the eyes of the law and in the eyes of God

    (Psa 73:22 KJV) So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee. (Isa 56:10 KJV) His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. 11 Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter. 12 Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.

    (Rom 10:3 KJV) For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

    ” Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise” Proverbs 20:1;

    “Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder” Proverbs 23:29-32; “But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean” Isaiah 28:7-8.

    (1 Cor 14:38 KJV) But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

    Comment by thenonconformer — October 21, 2008 @ 1:24 am

  7. Living for Christ: A Lifestyle that Honours God 1 Timothy 5:23: “Use a little wine for the sake of your stomach” A favorite verse of many people is Paul’s advice to Timothy in 1 Timothy 5:23 to “No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.” We need to note several things. Timothy obviously doesn’t even drink grape juice! (Note: in an earlier letter 1 Tim 3:2-3 Paul had told Timothy an Elderto be abstinent (nephalion), and a nonparticipant at drinking places and parties (meparoinon). Obviously advise Timothy had carefully followed). Additionally this is only for a ‘medical’ reason. Most significantly, historical testimonies tell us the ancients advised the use of use of unfermented wine for medical purposes. For example, Athenaeus, theGrammarian (A.D. 280), specifically advises one use unfermented “sweet wine” (glukonoinon) for stomach disorders. He writes: “Let him take sweet wine, either mixed with water or warmed, especially that kind called protropos, the sweet Lesbian glukus, asbeing good for the stomach; for sweet wine [oinos] does not make the head heavy.” (Athenaeus, Banquet 2, 24). This sounds similar to Paul. Athenaeus calls the wine” lesbian” because its alcoholic potency had been removed. Pliny (A. D. 79), a contemporary of Paul and author of the celebrated Natural History gives similar recommendations. He advise the use of boiled unfermented wine called adynamon for sick persons “for whom it is feared that wine may be harmful.” (Pliny, Natural History 14,18). Even if it were alcoholic wine Paul was talking about, it would only justify medical uses of alcohol. Paul is not here suggesting moderate drinking. Be abstinent The New Testament often admonitions abstinence through the Greek verb nepho and the adjective nephalios

    ((1 Th 5:6 KJV) Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. (1 Th 5:7 KJV) For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. (1 Th 5:8 KJV) But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. (1 Tim 3:2 KJV) A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; (1 Tim 3:11 KJV) Even so must their wives be grave (2 Tim 4:5 KJV) But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. (Titus 2:2 KJV) That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. (1 Pet 1:13 KJV) Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; (1 Pet 4:7 KJV) But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. (1 Pet 5:8 KJV) Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:).

    So note how many times the new testament says to be sober and it should be translated as abstinent or abstaining from wine There is noteworthy unanimity among Greek lexicons on the primary meaning of the verb nepho as “to abstain from wine” and of the adjective nephalios as”abstinent, without wine.” (See, for example, G. W. Lampe, A Patristic Greek Lexicon (Oxford, 1961),s. v. “Nepho”; James Donnegan, A New Greek and English Lexicon, 1847 edition, s. v. ” Nepho”; ThomasS. Green, A Greek-English Lexicon to the New Testament, 1892 edition, s. v. ” Nepho”; E. Robinson, AGreek and English Lexicon of the New Testament (New York, 1850), s. v. ” Nepho”; G. Abbott-Smith, AManual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament, 1937 edition, s. v. ” Nepho”; Hesychius of Alexandria,Hesychii Alexandri Lexicon, 1858 edition, s. v. ” Nephalios”; Demetrios C. S. Byzantios, Lexicon Epitomoutes Ellenikes Glosses, 1939 edition, s. v. “Nephalios.”). Josephus and Philo, who were contemporaries of Paul and Peter, both tell us the priests, who were not allowed to drink any wine were nephalioi andnephalios. (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews 3, 12, 2, trans. William Whiston, Josephus Complete Works(Grand Rapids, 1974), p. 81 and Philo, De Specialibus Legibus 4, 183). The adjective nephalios in ((1 Tim 3:2 KJV) A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; (1 Tim 3:11 KJV) Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. (Titus 2:2 KJV) That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.) can and should be read as abstinent. And nepho in ((1 Th 5:6 KJV) Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. (1 Th 5:7 KJV) For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. (1 Th 5:8 KJV) But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. (1 Pet 1:13 KJV) Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; (1 Pet 5:8 KJV) Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: ), should be translated as abstinent or abstaining from wine. Unfortunately, translators soften the meaning of the word and translate it in amore figurative sense as merely “temperate, sober, steady. ”While there is no simplistic “Thou shall not” command concerning alcohol, the Bible warns against wine that intoxicates. In addition to the Bibles warnings, there are many reasons for a Christian to avoid alcohol. Up to half of all crime is committed while under the influence of alcohol. There is our influence and example to friends, family and children (you cannot teach what you refuse to practice – its called hypocrisy). Many people are strongly predisposed to alcoholism and one drink may begin a lifetime of struggle and suffering. Finally, in view of Jesus soon return, we should avoid anything that would adversely affect our minds, hearts, bodies and social example. (Note: This study has used/adapted material from “Wine in the Bible” by S. Bacchiocchi).

    Alcohol causes more pain, death and suffering than all illegal drugs and should be completely avoided by a disciple of Jesus for moral, spiritual and scriptural reasons

    What about wine or alcohol? The Bible has no simplistic command that says, “You shall not drink alcohol,” though some warnings come close (The Bible doesn’t say, “Don’ttake LSD”, yet all Christians rightly condemn such drugs). However, the whole voice and direction of the Bible is clearly against intoxicating drink. We can tell this because wine that intoxicates is portrayed negatively in Biblical narratives and is routinely warned against ((Lev 10:8 KJV) And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying, (Lev 10:9 KJV) Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: (Lev 10:10 KJV) And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean; (Lev 10:11 KJV) And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses. (Judg 13:3 KJV) And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son. (Judg 13:4 KJV) Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing: (Prov 20:1 KJV) Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. (Prov 23:31 KJV) Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. (Prov 31:4 KJV) It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: (Prov 31:5 KJV) Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. (Hab 2:5 KJV) Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people: (Eph 5:18 KJV) And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; (1 Tim 3:2 KJV) A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; (1 Tim 3:3 KJV) Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; ), whereas non-intoxicating wine is portrayed positively ((Gen 27:28 KJV) Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine: (Gen 49:10 KJV) The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. (Gen 49:11 KJV) Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass’s colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes: (Gen 49:12 KJV) His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk. (Psa 104:14 KJV) He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth; (Psa 104:15 KJV) And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man’s heart. (Isa 55:1 KJV) Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. (Amos 9:13 KJV) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. (John 2:10 KJV) And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now. (John 2:11 KJV) This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.). This simultaneous approval and disapproval of ‘wine’ can seem confusing and contradictory. This problem largely disappears when we realize that the Hebrew and Greek words for wine (yayin and oinos) can mean either fermented or unfermented wine. The ancient writers who were contemporaries with many of the Biblical writers use the words to refer to both types of wine. For example in his book Metereologica, Aristotle (384-322 B.C.) speaks of unfermented grape juice (glukus), saying: “though called wine [oinos], it has not the effect of wine, for it does not taste like wine and does not intoxicate like ordinary wine.” Aristotle explicitly tells us unfermented grape juice was called “oinos” or “wine”. Other examples can be found in ancient Jewish writings also (The Septuagint, a translation of the Old Testament in Greek, often translates the Hebrew word for grape-juice “tirosh” by the Greek word ‘oinos’ or wine). The problem is not wine but what kind of wine. The Bible speaks against fermented wine, but for unfermented wine. Scripture condemns the use of alcoholic beverages because they distort the perception of reality ((Prov 23:33 KJV) Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. (Isa 28:7 KJV) But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. ); they impair the capacity to make moral, responsible decisions ((Lev 10:9 KJV) Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: (Lev 10:10 KJV) And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean; (Lev 10:11 KJV) And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.); they weaken moral sensitivities and inhibitions ((Gen 9:21 KJV) And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. (Gen 19:32 KJV) Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. (Isa 5:11 KJV) Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them! (Isa 5:12 KJV) And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands. (Hab 2:15 KJV) Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness! ); they cause physical sickness ((Psa 60:3 KJV) Thou hast showed thy people hard things: thou hast made us to drink the wine of astonishment. (Prov 23:20 KJV) Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh: (Prov 23:21 KJV) For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags. (Isa 19:14 KJV) The LORD hath mingled a perverse spirit in the midst thereof: and they have caused Egypt to err in every work thereof, as a drunken man staggereth in his vomit. (Hosea 7:5 KJV) In the day of our king the princes have made him sick with bottles of wine; he stretched out his hand with scorners. ); and they disqualify for civil and religious service ((Lev 10:9 KJV) Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: (Lev 10:10 KJV) And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean; (Lev 10:11 KJV) And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses. (Prov 31:4 KJV) It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: (Prov 31:5 KJV) Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. (1 Tim 3:2 KJV) A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; (1 Tim 3:3 KJV) Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; (Titus 1:7 KJV) For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; (Titus 1:8 KJV) But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; ). Contrary to popular opinion, it was as hard if not harder to preserve fermented wine than unfermented grape juice. To prevent fermented wine from becoming acid, moldy, or foul-smelling, the ancients used many preservatives such as salt, sea-water, liquid or solid pitch, boiled-down must, marble dust, lime, sulphur fumes or crushed iris. In comparison the preservation of grape juice unfermented was a relatively simpler process. Ancient sources inform us of four main ways: (1) by boiling down the juice to a syrup, (2) by separating the fermentable pulp from the juice of the grape by means of filtration, (3) by placing freshly pressed grape juice in sealed jars which were immersed in a pool of cold water, and (4) by fumigating the wine jars with sulphur before sealing them. What follows are some Bible texts that are commonly misused by people to justify moderate drinking . Many think Jesus turned water into alcoholic wine at the wedding of Cana. Supposedly “good wine” is that which has a high alcoholic content. However, ancient authors from Jesus day considered “good wine” to be unfermented wine whose alcoholic potency had been removed by boiling or filtration. Pliny, for example, says “wines are most beneficial (utilissimum) when all their potency has been removed by the strainer.” (Pliny, Natural History 23, 24, trans. W. H. S. Jones, The Loeb Classical Library, Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1961). Similarly, Plutarch tells us wine is “much more pleasant to drink” when it “neither inflames the brain nor infests the mind or passions” because its strength has been removed through frequent filtering. (Plutarch, Symposiac 8, 7). The ancient Jewish Talmud indicates that drinking to the accompaniment of musical instruments on festive occasions such as a wedding was forbidden. (See Sotah 48a; also Mishna Sotah 9, 11). Some interpret John 2:10 “well drunk” as meaning very intoxicated. But the Greek verb methusko is correctly translated “to drink freely” by the RSV of the Bible, without any implication of intoxication. New Wine in New Wineskins Christ’s statement that “new wine must be put into fresh wineskins” ((Mat 9:17 KJV) Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved. (Mark 2:22 KJV) And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles. (Luke 5:38 KJV) But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.), supposedly indicates Jesus approved use of alcohol. This is a strangein terpretation, as Jesus is not even talking about whether one should drink wine or not. Nothing in this passage supports drinking alcohol. It is probable that the wine is non-alcoholic as it is simply not possible for new or old wineskins to withstand the pressure of fermentation! Unfermented grape juice must be put into new wineskins. If new wine was put into old wineskins, remnant material from the pervious wine could start fermentation and develop gas with an enormous pressure that would burst and ruinboth the grape juice and the skin. Unfermented must, after it had been filtered or boiled, is ‘new wine’ which could be safely stored in new wineskins. Luke adds the following tothis story “And no one after drinking old wine desires new; for he says, ‘The old is good ‘”(Luke 5:39). Some people claim Jesus is commending old wine, which is likely fermented. They miss the whole point. In verses 33-39 Jesus is describing how the ‘old’ ways of the Pharisees don’t like the ‘new’ work of Jesus. Jesus says not to put new wine into old wineskins, a new patch on an old garment. He then concludes that one who is used to old wine won’t want the new. The person preferring the old (fermented wine) is the Pharisee who is resisting Jesus new teachings. The Last Supper During Passover time when Jesus instituted the last supper he referred to the wine as the “the fruit of the vine” ( (Mat 26:29 KJV) But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom. (Mark 14:25 KJV) Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God. (Luke 22:18 KJV) For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. ). The noun “fruit” (gennema) emphasizes this ‘wine’ is that which is in its natural state, just as it is gathered. Fermented wine is not the natural “fruit of the vine” but the unnatural fruit offermentation and decay. The Jewish historian Josephus, a contemporary of the apostles, explicitly calls the three clusters of grapes freshly squeezed in a cup by Pharaoh’s cupbearer as “the fruit of the vine.” (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews 2, 5,2). The phrase is clearly used to refer to the sweet, unfermented juice of the grape. We should also note that all fermented products (leaven bread etc) were to be disregarded at Passover time. Numerous ancient Christian groups use unfermented grape juice for the last supper.
    http://74.125.95.104/search?q=cache:uSTsTdHBOVkJ:www.livingstonsda.org.au/7livingextra.pdf+what+is+the+meaning+of+23+Drink+no+longer+water,+but+use+a+little+wine+for+thy+stomach%27s+sake&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2

    In speaking of the ungodliness of the Gentiles, Peter wrote, “For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of Gentiles — when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries” (1 Pet 4:3 – NKJV).

    In listing the works of the flesh in Galatians 5:19-21, the apostle Paul mentions both drunkenness and revelries. But just in case that wasn’t clear enough, he added these words, “and the like” (v 21). This would be considered somewhat of a “catch-all” phrase for any evil thing not specified in the previous verses. In 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22, Paul wrote, “Test all things; hold fast what is good. Abstain from every form of evil” (NKJV). The word translated “good” is from the Greek kalos, meaning “commendable, admirable, excellent in its nature and characteristics, praiseworthy, morally good, noble, affecting the mind agreeably” (Strong’s). None of these traits can be ascribed to the use of alcohol.

    The use of alcohol in moderation in social or private settings has many defenders, but no defense. Remember Paul’s admonition to Timothy, “Be not a partaker in other men’s sins, keep thy self pure” (1 Tim 5:22).
    http://www.housetohouse.com/hth/biblequestions/archive/question0029.htm

    Barrack Obama says that he is a Christian.,.. so what.. we are all as Christians still to to judge a person is he is a really Christian now in the church.. or do you not read that verse in the Bible now too? and we are to expect fruits of this too.. Jesus said by their fruits you can tell if they are a Christian, for not everyone who says Lord, Lord Jesus is still a Christian.. a true Christian leader does not drink alcohol, get drunk,. support gay marriages, oppose apostle Paul’s writings, etc., he has so many strikes against him it is unbelievable that he could be a Christian, a pretending Christian yes.

    (Isa 28:1 KJV) Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine! (Isa 28:3 KJV) The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet: (Joel 1:5 KJV) Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine, for it is cut off from your mouth. (Nahum 1:10 KJV) For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.

    (1 Cor 6:10 KJV) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    Slander is telling an unsubstantiated fact, a lie.. I have substantiated my reasons, facts on my posts… as to why Obama is not a true, real practicing Christian for start.. As a pastor I too do know that 70 percent of people going to a Christian church are still non practicing, not real Christians.. lip service only Christians being happily married means nothing alone.. telling lies for Obama is wrong. Does he or does he not drink alcohol and how much now too? Does he also now give out playboy too? no such thing as little bit pregnant.. open the door an inch and the devil takes a mile.

    I personally have done no sin, wrong in any of my posts, but you clearly now do not practice what you preach hypocritically, you claim we should not judge pothers, but you have even falsely judge me.. take the beam out of your own eyes..

    And homosexuality is still wrong. drunkenness is wrong, abortion is wrong, gay sex is wrong, lust is wrong. lying is wrong. gossip and slander are wrong. pride is wrong, drinking alcohol for a leader is wrong.. 80 million Christians in the US believe this too,. in a recent poll 57 percent of Americans do not believe Obama is a Christian as well.

    but lets unite on things that we can unite on. giving to the poor. looking after the orphaned. taking care of the widows. loving people unconditionally does not mean approving, justifying their sins. like Jesus Christ loves you and loves me.

    Most site say Obama does not drink alcohol Now you and I know that is a lie to start of with, a false spin.. I saw him drinking alcohol on TV news and I also saw the photo of him drinking alcohol.. so ask him to repent, not me, I do not lie, cheat, slander, drink alcohol or get drunk https://anyonecare.wordpress.com/2008/10/15/john-mccain-sarah-palin-barack-obama-and-joe-biden/
    http://thenonconformer.wordpress.com/2008/07/18/the-pcs-said-the-liberals-were-crooked-but-what-about-themselves/

    https://anyonecare.wordpress.com/2008/06/29/hard-to-tell-the-difference/

    https://anyonecare.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/alcoholism-the-unacceptable-sin/
    http://postedat.wordpress.com/2008/07/29/and-if-the-righteous-scarcely-be-saved/
    https://anyonecare.wordpress.com/2008/05/23/good-and-bad-unacceptable-theology/
    https://anyonecare.wordpress.com/2008/07/16/just-by-me-merely-observing/
    http://thenonconformer.wordpress.com/2008/07/22/pm-stephen-harper-needs-to-get-better-friends-needs-to-repent-himself-too/
    http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2007/12/22/is-it-ok-for-a-christian-to-smoke-marijuana/
    http://postedat.wordpress.com/2008/06/27/how-many-rich-people-in-calgary-edmonton-alberta/
    http://postedat.wordpress.com/2008/06/22/alberta-the-devils-belt/
    https://anyonecare.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/christian-missionary-alliance/
    https://anyonecare.wordpress.com/2008/05/10/christian-and-missionary-alliance-denomination/
    http://thenonconformer.wordpress.com/2008/05/18/on-how-to-deal-with-it
    http://thenonconformer.wordpress.com/2008/06/15/bullies-free-speech/
    http://postedat.wordpress.com/2008/06/27/libel/
    http://pbulow.tripod.com
    http://postedat.wordpress.com/
    https://anyonecare.wordpress.com /
    http://postedat.wordpress.com/2008/06/22/as-to-what-is-a-christian/

    Booze may speed shrinking of the brain
    Chicago Sun-Times – First, the experts said drinking low to moderate amounts of alcohol was a good idea, that it might protect against heart disease. Now, a study has found that such drinking has a risk: It might speed the shrinking of the brain that naturally comes with …

    Study Links Drinking Alcohol To Shrinking Of The Brain dBTechno
    Excess Drinking Shrinks the Brain Washington Post
    Xinhua – DetNews.com – Telegraph.co.uk – MedPage Today

    all 95 news articles »

    Comment by thenonconformer — October 21, 2008 @ 1:46 am

  8. Funny how some immoral persons, even if they call themselves Christians , have to resort to personal attacks on the writer, me, , when they cannot dispute the biblical truths, facts presented.. it is their own false alternative to avoid facing the truth about themselves firstly, the really big beam in their own eye.. and they are foolish enough to think I have to put up with it too.. if you lie to me, abuse me, I rightfully no longer talk to you for a start.. as simple as that… no matter who you think you are now, my mother, father, brother, sister, wife, children etc..

    It has been very interesting to me that some of the biggest alcoholics and false proponents of ALCOHOL now are Ministers themselves.. and what else do they do? tax evasions, adultery, divorce, slander, gossip, no wonder in my own real personal experiences the last 5 decades too that 70 percent of the pastors are ungodly, immoral still and undeniably very very few people respect them anymore for what they do and say.

    No other issue tends to divide the church and evoke as much deep seated emotion as the question of alcohol, but only for the alcoholics now too, for in general, is itself a false statement.. for clearly the issue of gay marriages, but note esepcially speaking in tongues, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and Healing, gifts of the Holy spirit, impartation, cause more discussions and oppositions too, as the Anglican Church splits, and as the latests net exposes about the Todd Bentley Florida revival has clearly shown

    as I have said many times before, even since the Garden of Eden, the devil still lies about the truth and he still says to you that you will not die if you disobey God’s law.. and he does that about lusts, stealing, alcohol, adultery, divorce or whatever.. to keep the people in bondage in their wrongful sins.. but Adam and Eve still paid a price for their sins next, so do we all..

    (John 4:37 KJV) And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth. (Gal 6:7 KJV) Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

    (Mat 7:21 KJV) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    (Mat 7:22 KJV) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    (Mat 7:23 KJV) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    (Mat 5:22 KJV) But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

    (Mark 2:17 KJV) When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    (Mark 4:17 KJV) And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended.

    (Luke 8:13 KJV) They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

    (Heb 9:14 KJV) How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    (John 9:41 KJV) Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

    (John 15:22 KJV) If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.

    (1 Cor 11:16 KJV) But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

    (Eph 5:11 KJV) And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

    (2 Th 3:14 KJV) And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

    (1 John 1:8 KJV) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    (3 John 1:4 KJV) I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

    (Rev 14:11 KJV) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    (1 Tim 1:8 KJV) But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

    (Heb 13:4 KJV) Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

    (Rev 21:8 KJV) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    (Rev 22:15 KJV) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

    Note one’s mere Personal opinions, speculations, and personal bashes in response are always unacceptable.. I have given sufficient facts, sufficient Bible verses to substantiate my views.. so I expect in fairness similar full, courteous responses rightfully..

    Merely supporting Alcohol cause you come from an alcoholic religious group , or family is not an adequate response, approach, and is not being truthful about it all as well..

    The fact remains that the Bible does prohibit the consumption of alcohol by kings, political leaders, priests and the Bible does more than just warn us all against drunkenness. It says all drunkards go to hell, whether they are professing Christians or not. (1 Cor 6:9 KJV) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: ( note the past tense where, meaning you have stopped being a drunkard if you are a true Christian)

    While alcohol is nothing but bad news and we would be far better off without it it is unrealistic to enforce it, as it would be to try to enforce adultery

    Someone really cannot be a “true” Christian if they continue to sin, to drink alcohol, to commit adultery, polygamy, or whatever.. The Holy Spirit does not abide in such persons, for undeniably, clearly they are unsaved and are going to hell, whether you like it or not too. They are rather under the control of an evil sprit, alcohol.. that is why they cannot give it up easily.. If you need the specific Bible verses I can fully detail them to you again..

    Those who say that the demon is always in the person, not the wine, would likely lie and say the same thing is applicable to smoking, drugs, pornography, whatever.. but we know that Alcohol, smoking and also bad drugs themselves are medically harmful and alcohol causes brain damage, is addictive as well.

    (Heb 10:26 KJV) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    Moses did not make it into the promised land because of just one sin of disobedience, so what about all of the people who continue to willfully sin..

    (Mat 5:13 KJV) Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

    (Heb 10:29 KJV) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    (Heb 10:30 KJV) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

    (Heb 10:31 KJV) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    I personally have seen the face of many a pastor, who had mocked God and me, and refused to repent when I had asked them, but they were not laughing, happy anymore when I witnessed them receiving God’s judgment for their past poor, sinful acts here on earth to start of with, there was a pale, unbelievable fright on their faces and that of their spouse as well knowing now fully they were personally reaping what they had sowed now too.. remind you of King Saul now too?
    (Rev 3:19 KJV) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

    do see also
    http://thefocusonthefamily.wordpress.com/2008/08/12/more-about-control-freaks/
    http://witnessed.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/neither-give-place-to-the-devil/
    http://thefocusonthefamily.wordpress.com/2008/09/23/the-children-of-god/
    http://postedat.wordpress.com/2008/09/25/lies-slander-personal-defamation-on-the-net-be-warned/
    http://postedat.wordpress.com/2008/10/13/the-false-supression-of-free-speech/
    http://postedat.wordpress.com/2008/06/23/another-bully/

    Comment by thenonconformer — October 21, 2008 @ 10:34 pm

  9. I have written a lengthy rebuttal on my blog that demonstrates the assumption that wine mentioned in the bible was inherently alcoholic. It is interesting to note that not one verse of scripture implies in any way, shape or form that wine was a non-alcoholic drink. All the “so called” evidence that tries to assert this error is from agenda orientated extra biblical sources.

    http://reformationcall.wordpress.com/

    Comment by spong — October 23, 2008 @ 12:15 am

  10. I have said it before the devil will immediately challenge all truths, and next use his followers to do the same.. and you can always find a sufficiently distorted liberal translation, or re-translation of the Bible now as well to support any point of view that you want, but that does so not still make it right or the truth.

    It has been sadly very interesting to me that some of the biggest alcoholics and false proponents of ALCOHOL now are Ministers themselves.. and what else do they do? tax evasions, adultery, divorce, slander, gossip, no wonder in my own real personal experiences the last 5 decades too that 70 percent of the pastors are ungodly, immoral still and undeniably very very few people respect them anymore for what they do and say.

    It is often also non surprising to me that people who are closed to be led by the Holy spirit, to Pentecostalism, tongues would prefer the demonic spirit of drunkenness.

    No other issue tends to divide the church and evoke as much deep seated emotion as the question of alcohol, but only for the alcoholics now too, for in general, is itself a false statement.. for clearly the issue of gay marriages, but note esepcially speaking in tongues, Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and Healing, gifts of the Holy spirit, impartation, cause more discussions and oppositions too, as the Anglican Church splits, and as the latests net exposes about the Todd Bentley Florida revival has clearly shown

    https://anyonecare.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/the-witchhunt-against-the-pentecostals-backfired/

    https://anyonecare.wordpress.com/2008/09/12/the-nomination-of-republican-vice-president-sarah-plain-has-certainly-sparked-interest/
    http://thefocusonthefamily.wordpress.com/2008/09/06/religious-topics-of-interest/
    http://thefocusonthefamily.wordpress.com/2008/08/26/disturbing-trend-sensationalized-religious-postings-bashings/
    https://anyonecare.wordpress.com/2008/07/05/laying-of-hands-impartation-breathe-of-the-spirit-anointings-anointed/
    https://anyonecare.wordpress.com/2008/06/13/what-is-the-general-christian-sentiment-towards-pentecostalism/
    https://anyonecare.wordpress.com/2008/07/12/bad-pastors-bad-d
    http://postedat.wordpress.com/2008/09/09/betrayers-of-jesus-christ/
    http://groups.msn.com/HolySpiritCome

    Comment by thenonconformer — October 23, 2008 @ 12:40 am

  11. I have also posted this issue over on Theology Web to stir up a bit of debate on this topic, so please feel free to make your views known over there. I am sure it has the makings of an interesting debate.

    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?p=2477893#post2477893

    Comment by spong — October 23, 2008 @ 2:55 am


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