Missing the point?

May 25, 2008

Trinity

Filed under: Christianity — Tags: , , , , , — thenonconformer @ 2:51 pm

  “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19) and  “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all” (2 Corinthians 13:14).

The Trinity is a Christian doctrine, stating that God is one being who exists, simultaneously and eternally, as a mutual indwelling of three persons:   the Father, the Son (incarnate as Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. ie. the one God exists in three Persons and one substance, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, The belief in the Trinity, is a mark of Oriental and Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism and all the mainstream protestant Churches. The non Christian churches that do not support this, include theUnitariaty Church and the Mormons- the Latter Day Saints.

To support Trinitarianism, Bible exegetes cite references to the Trinity, to Jesus as God, and both to God alone and to Jesus as the Savior.

Bible  References to the Trinity
A few verses directly reference the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit:
Matthew 3:16–17: “As soon as Jesus Christ was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and landing on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, ‘This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.’ ” (also Mark 1:10–11; Luke 3:22; John 1:32)
Matthew 28:19: “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (see Trinitarian formula).
2 Corinthians 13:14: “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you.”
1 John 5:7–8: “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” (This is the controversial Comma Johanneum, which did not appear in Greek texts before the sixteenth century.)
Luke 1:35: “The angel answered and said to her, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.’ ”
Hebrews 9:14: “How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!” 
 
 Jesus as God
Many verses in John, the epistles, and Revelation imply support for the doctrine that Jesus Christ is God and the closely related concept of the Trinity. The Gospel of John in particular supports Jesus’ divinity. This is a partial list of supporting Bible verses:
John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” together with John 1:14 “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.” and John 1:18 “No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.”[22]The Bible says “God the One and Only” in NIV.
John 5:21 “For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.”
John 8:23–24: “But he continued,’You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am [the one I claim to be], you will indeed die in your sins.'”
John 8:58 “I tell you the truth”, Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!
John 10:30: “I and the Father are one.”
John 10:38: “But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
John 12:41: “Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.”—As the context shows, this implied the Tetragrammaton in Isaiah 6:10 refers to Jesus.
John 20:28: “Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!'”
Philippians 2:5–8: “Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross!”
Colossians 1:15: “He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God”
Colossians 1:16: “For by him [Jesus] all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.”
Colossians 1:17: “He [Jesus] is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”
Colossians 2:9: “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form”
Titus 2:13: “while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ.”
1 Timothy 3:16: “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
Hebrews 1:8: “But about the Son he [God] says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.”
1 John 5:20: “We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.”
Revelation 1:17–18: “When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.” This is seen as significant when viewed with Isaiah 44:6: “This is what the LORD says—Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

The Bible also refers to Jesus as a man, which is in line with the Trinitarian concept that Jesus was fully human as well as fully divine which is expressed through the theological concept of kenosis.

 God alone is the Savior and the Savior is Jesus
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The Old Testament identifies the LORD as the only savior, and the New Testament identifies Jesus Christ as God and Savior.
Isaiah 43:11: “‘I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.'”
Titus 2:10: “and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.”
Titus 3:4: “But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared”, in regard with:
Luke 2:11: “‘Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord.'”
Acts 20:28: “‘the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.'”
Titus 2:13: “while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ”
John 4:42: “They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man [Jesus] really is the Savior of the world.'”
Titus 3:6: “whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior”
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In 325, the Council of Nicaea adopted a term for the relationship between the Son and the Father that from then on was seen as the hallmark of orthodoxy; it declared that the Son is “of the same substance” (ὁμοούσιος) as the Father. This was further developed into the formula “three persons, one substance”. The answer to the question “What is God?” indicates the one-ness of the divine nature, while the answer to the question “Who is God?” indicates the three-ness of “Father, Son and Holy Spirit”. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity
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 The true Christian Church had always believed: that the Son is fully God, coeternal with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. The formulation of the complete Bible now was also made about  this time.  The New Testament was written in the first century before 100 A.D. by the Apostles of Jesus and his brothers. So now for 2000 years true Christians have supported Jesus being, God, the trinity, the whole Bible, and have opposed polygamous marriages too. Part of the valid critics of the newer Bible translation over the King James versions is they water down the deity of Christ, and the Trinitarian concept of God, they water down the shed blood of Jesus Christ too, etc.. and cause just as many errors as they were supposedly to help solve.
http://b.1asphost.com/freelygiven/bible.htm
http://b.1asphost.com/freelygiven/theword.htm
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A Biblical canon or canon of scripture ] is a list or set of Biblical books considered to be authoritative as scripture by a particular religious community, generally in Judaism or Christianity.Christian canons. These lists, or canons, have been developed through debate and agreement by the religious authorities of those faiths. Believers consider these canonical books to be inspired by God or to express the authoritative history of the relationship between God and his people. Books excluded from a particular canon are considered non-canonical —There are differences between the Jewish and Christian canons
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Development of the Christian Biblical canon. The Biblical canon is the set of books Christians regard as divinely inspired and thus constituting the Christian Bible. Though the Early Church used the Old Testament according to the canon of the Septuagint (LXX)[12], the apostles did not otherwise leave a defined set of new scriptures; instead the New Testament developed over time.  while there was a good measure of debate in the Early Church over the New Testament canon, the major writings were accepted by almost all Christians by the middle of the second century. In his Easter letter of 367, Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, gave a list of exactly the same books as what would become the New Testament canon,   and he used the word “canonized” (kanonizomena) in regards to them.  ] The African Synod of Hippo, in 393, approved the New Testament, as it stands today, together with the Septuagint books, a decision that was repeated by Councils of Carthage in 397 and 419. These councils were under the authority of St. Augustine, who regarded the canon as already closed.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon
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>>Amen, Thenonconformer. I think the problem lies in people looking for a specific verse that tells them an exact answer. These are the ones who demand we stay ONLY in context. Doing this is right in many cases, but it is often like looking at one square inch on a vast painting, and thinking they see the whole picture. We see the Trinity by seeing MANY parts of the picture God painted in the Bible.
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True.
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PEOPLE ARE LAZY AND WANT AN OVER SIMPLIFIED RELIGION, GOSPEL, BIBLE.. AND 95 PERCENT OF THE CHRISTIANS EVEN NOW  DO NOT READ THE BIBLE FOR THEMSELVES FOR MORE THAN  5 MINUTES A DAY, SO THEY BELIEVE MOSTLY WHAT OTHERS HAD SAID ABOUT THE BIBLE.
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It is sad but true.. too many false pastors, false teachers, false cults, false denominations with hidden agenda take advantage of this void and lead the professing Christian sheep astray next, helped by the devil in all of this too undeniably.
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and it is not true that God, Jesus, Holy Spirit speak only through the Bible.. http://pbulow.tripod.com/voice.html 
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6 Comments »

  1. “The greatest row in the history of Christianity centered on a single word filioque and on the doctrine of the Trinity.

    The row split the Eastern Church, which mostly became the Orthodox Church, and the Western Church, which became the Roman Catholic Church and its later Protestant offshoots. There were other matters at issue as well, but the row over ‘the filioque clause’ led to the Great Schism of 1054.
    The Latin word filioque, which means ‘and from the son’, was gradually inserted by Western churches into the Nicene Creed so that it stated that the Holy Spirit proceeds not from the God the Father alone, as the early Church Fathers believed, but from both God the Father and God the Son.

    There were fundamental problems of authority as well The Eastern wing of the Church was angry that the Western wing of the Church had altered a fundamental part of the creed without their agreement – indeed without even consulting them. This didn’t seem to them like the behaviour of a united church, and so the two wings eventually went their separate ways.”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/beliefs/trinity_6.shtml

    To me the Holy Spirit clearly exalts the Son, testifies of Him too.

    The Nicene Creed as confirmed by the First Council of Constantinople in 381:

    “We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father. Who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified.”

    The Nicene Creed with the “filioque” as accepted by the Western churches after the Synod of Toledo in Spain in 589: “We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. Who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified.”

    The theological dispute between the Eastern and Western Church is somewhat subtle, dealing with the persons of the Godhead and the nature of the Trinity. However, it was a continuing source of friction between the east and the west and was eventually elevated to become one of the “official” causes of the Great Schism in 1054 A.D.

    While the phrase “who proceeds from the Father” is found in John 5:26, no similar statement about the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son is found in the New Testament. However, support for the idea that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son has been sought in several passages. In John 16:13-15 Jesus says of the Holy Spirit “he will take what is mine and declare it to you”, and it is argued that in the relations between the Persons of the Trinity one Person cannot “take” or “receive” (λήψεται) anything from either of the others except by way of procession. ] Other texts that have been used include Galatians 4:6, Romans 8:9, Philippians 1:19, where the Holy Spirit is called “the Spirit of the Son”, “the Spirit of Christ”, “the Spirit of Jesus Christ”, and texts in the Gospel of John on the sending of the Holy Spirit by Jesus (14:16, 15:26, 16:7).[13] Titus 3:6 speaks of God pouring out the Holy Spirit “through Jesus Christ our Saviour”, while Acts 2:33 speaks of Jesus himself pouring out the Holy Spirit, having received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father.

    The Eastern Orthodox interpretation is that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and is sent (on Pentecost day) from the Father through the Son (ex Patre per Filium procedit). The Latin West states that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son together (ex Patre Filioque procedit). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filioque_clause#Differences_in_views

    Secondly being very familiar with the Orthodox church there is no way I can honestly say that this church is an active leader in Christianity these days too.

    The people who try to knock the Trinity seem to overlook the obvious it has been undeniably uncontested in major support by the majority Christians now over 1700 years.. Just like most people overlook the obvious our calendars testify as it been 2000 years AD since the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as well..

    I have also discovered that same people, denominations who are flawed in accepting the Trinity are also flawed in other major doctrines now too.. not a surprise too.

    It is the Holy spirit who guides and leads us in all truth and he cannot do that if you deny his existence or his attributes now firstly too.

    Comment by thenonconformer — May 26, 2008 @ 8:23 pm

  2. I am still amazed by type of people who want to discuss on this site, on the Holy Trinity, other subjects here, I am also amazed often even about their total ignorance of the Bible and the fact they are lying to me, they really do not want to discuss anything here honestly, for it seems they want to push their own false agendas, and whether it be orthodoxy, Islam, Judaism, Mormonism, SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST, JW, ETC., or what ever.. and NONE OF THESE TOPICS FOR ME ARE WORTH EVER BOTHERING TALKING ABOUT!

    Here is a verse that clinches Holy trinity issue for me.. John 14:23 Note the terms we, our used ” and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him”.

    (John 14:21 KJV) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    (John 14:22 KJV) Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

    (John 14:23 KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

    (John 14:24 KJV) He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

    (John 14:26 KJV) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    SO THE FIRST ISSUE BEFORE YOU CAN KNOW THE TRUTH YOU HAVE TO DEAL, ACCEPT WITH JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR LORD, PERSONAL SAVIOR

    Comment by thenonconformer — May 28, 2008 @ 6:32 pm

  3. […] Trinity […]

    Pingback by Top Guns « Missing the point? — July 5, 2008 @ 12:07 pm

  4. I like to recommend the Bible’s answers too.. (John 7:16 KJV) Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

    You want to know more truths, be doers of the God and not man’s word firstly, serve God alone..

    Jer 17:5 Thus says the Lord: Cursed [with great evil] is the strong man who trusts in {and} relies on frail man, making weak [human] flesh his arm, and whose mind {and} heart turn aside from the Lord.
    Jer 17:6 For he shall be like a shrub {or} a person naked and destitute in the desert; and he shall not see any good come, but shall dwell in the parched places in the wilderness, in an uninhabited salt land.
    Jer 17:7 [Most] blessed is the man who believes in, trusts in, {and} relies on the Lord, and whose hope {and} confidence the Lord is.
    Jer 17:8 For he shall be like a tree planted by the waters that spreads out its roots by the river; and it shall not see {and} fear when heat comes; but its leaf shall be green. It shall not be anxious {and} full of care in the year of drought, nor shall it cease yielding fruit.

    (Prov 29:25 KJV) The fear of man bringeth a snare: but whoso putteth his trust in the LORD shall be safe.

    (Prov 29:26 KJV) Many seek the ruler’s favour; but every man’s judgment cometh from the LORD.

    (Prov 29:27 KJV) An unjust man is an abomination to the just: and he that is upright in the way is abomination to the wicked.

    (John 14:23 KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we ( note the plural term) will come unto him, and make our ( plural again) abode with him.

    (John 14:24 KJV) He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

    >>but if you can answer the questions as to where the “Trinity” and the two are one came from except from man //

    I cannot understand why people are having problem with the trinity for to me they are obviously listening to other men and not to God or his word the Bible.. if you have problem with the trinity tome you have many other major problems, such as you are not really being led by the Holy Spirit still too, and who is Jesus really now too? and you are not reading the Bible itself, alone.

    I have no hidden agenda, I am working for no denomination, or building any church empires too. I do not have to defend my church’s doctrines or their leaders now too.. I am an anointed Christian who follows solely Christ himself.

    I have also been gifted that God speaks to me, that Jesus speaks to me and that the Holy spirit speaks to me, because I am sold out to them.. I live for them alone.. anyone who is trying to serve God, self, the world, the devil they thus will always be in confusion and will not not know even God well firstly. I had made a full commitment to serve Jesus Christ and alone too for no man can serve two masters. I have been called to be Pastor directly by God, this was not my own first choice of a profession now too.

    (Mat 16:24 KJV) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

    (Mat 16:25 KJV) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

    There is no way in the world Jehowah Wittness, or Mormons can even be considered Christians for sure too.

    Comment by thenonconformer — July 23, 2008 @ 8:02 am

  5. “For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.” (Jeremiah 29:11)

    Some had asked as to how one should deal with wrongful accusations by others.. mind you there are various responses to this by others.. sue them for slander the lawyers would say.. And yes many people make false accusation for all kinds of reasons too, Revenge, bitterness, Jealousy, envy.. The people who support the false accusations generally tend to be immoral persons themselves too..but being wrongfully accused by others is also often mentioned, detailed also in the Bible.. Just for a start Moses was wrongfully accused, even Joseph, Job, King David, Daniel, Jesus Christ Himself as well, and their common reaction was to stay humble, keep the faith, tell the truth still to others, and waited for God to fully justify them, to expose the whole truth

    I can honestly say that the worse things that had happened to me in the last 50 years too had turned out to be the best things next for me.. and we know that all things work for the good for those who love God..

    Rom 8:28 KJV) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

    (Rom 8:29 KJV) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    (Rom 8:30 KJV) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    (Rom 8:31 KJV) What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

    (Rom 8:32 KJV) He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

    (Rom 8:33 KJV) Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.

    (Rom 8:34 KJV) Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    (Rom 8:35 KJV) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

    (Rom 8:36 KJV) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

    (Rom 8:37 KJV) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

    (Rom 8:38 KJV) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

    (Rom 8:39 KJV) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Bad things happen to all of us because elf the curse of our grandparents, Adam and even, as promised they would next.. and bad things are helped along by the devil and his followers too.. if we are doing things our own way, according to our own gospel, our own understanding we cannot even resist the devil..

    (Mark 7:29 KJV) the devil is gone out of thy daughter.

    (Rev 12:12 KJV) Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

    I can say for certainly that the many bad things that happen din my life reduced when I became a bond slave, servant of Jesus Christ, I dispel many of them away now too in the name and the authority of of Jesus .. and those bad things still that happen happened for God’s glory still next.. and for my good..

    I rather rightfully believe in Jesus and follow him alone .. and not in the devil and his follrwers who certainly. visbly have no real love or peace in their own lives.

    http://postedat.wordpress.com/2008/07/24/wrongful-accusations/
    https://anyonecare.wordpress.com/2008/07/18/libel-2/

    Comment by thenonconformer — July 24, 2008 @ 4:15 pm


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